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Craig
Project Leader
United Kingdom
2320 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 21:25:56
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Gosh! Thanks Dusty - that has cleared that up, and I'm aghast. Both at finding out that councillors don't and can't represent the electorate, and at my complete lack of knowledge of what I thought was a democratic process.
Why is it that the public are encouraged to contact their councillor about planning issues if they can't do anything about it or indeed, discussing the very issue could invalidate their ability to vote on any given application? |
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Dusty
Senior Member
United Kingdom
692 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2009 : 21:54:24
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Since when have we had democracy? We vote for the Prime Minister with the best grin once every five years and they then proceed to do whatever they want despite the promises in their manifesto or the expressed wishes of the populace.
We can only hope that the councillors comments are a ploy, perhaps they will say that they were in favour of the incinerator but went to the meeting with an open mind and were so convinced by the arguments that they ended up voting against. However, I doubt it.
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IGS
WoLFer
739 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 00:29:38
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| There were County Council elections earlier this year and the majority of you couldn't be bothered to vote. Those that did vote believed the crap that the tabloids told you!!! You can only blame yourselves for the reaction that you get from your elected members!! If you checked you would have noticed that the Tories were always for the incinerator. They were also originally for the expansion of Stansted until Labour got in. |
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IGS
WoLFer
739 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 00:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Since when have we had democracy? We vote for the Prime Minister with the best grin once every five years and they then proceed to do whatever they want despite the promises in their manifesto or the expressed wishes of the populace.
We can only hope that the councillors comments are a ploy, perhaps they will say that they were in favour of the incinerator but went to the meeting with an open mind and were so convinced by the arguments that they ended up voting against. However, I doubt it.
These are the comments I expect to hear from tabloid illiterates. We do not elect the Prime Minister!!! We elect an MP. (If this upsets any reader Of silly newspapers like the Sun. Mirror, Express and the MAIL; THEN TOUGH!!!!) |
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Craig
Project Leader
United Kingdom
2320 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 08:59:05
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quote:
Tories were always for the incinerator
The incinerator plans at Westmill were only recently announced. How can they 'always have been for the incinerator'? |
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WickenMan
Average Member
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 09:30:18
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I don't think that the interests of Ware would be best served by turning this into a political debate.
Other than a few councillors, whose stated opinions in the Biffa 'welcome book' used at their presentation appear not to represent the views of many of their constituents, we need as many folk on board to fight these insidious plans, regardless of political hue. At the presentation I attended the local people to whom I spoke would appear to come from across the political spectrum but were of one voice in rejecting the notion that this was good for Ware.
How can it be in any way right for Biffa's plans to be approved by thinking people with any consideration for themselves, their environment and local people? Clearly there are some people whose motivations must be regarded as suspect if they believe the building of this incinerator on Ware's doorstep is a good thing for Ware. These are the either self centred or misguided views that need to be overcome.
Please let's not allow party politicking get in the way of what must be a unified and concerted effort to prevent Ware's locality being the poorer in the short, medium and long term whilst Biffa's self interest is promoted. |
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Barzey
Senior Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 09:48:23
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| Well stated "Wickenman" - I totally agree - Please leave the Political stuff OUT of this thread and concentrate on the serious matter in hand folks. |
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Scouter
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 09:58:48
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| Biffa are doing a presentation to the Town Council tonight and Councillor Edward Bedford has invited me down after I contacted him about this issue. Is anyone else going? |
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Craig
Project Leader
United Kingdom
2320 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 10:10:08
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quote:
Please leave the Political stuff OUT of this thread and concentrate on the serious matter in hand folks.
Hang on. This thread is one of several threads about the incinerator site and this one is specifically about the views our councillors, who are our politicians.
It appears that if we lobby our councillors, or they give an opinion in public, they may not be allowed to challenge an application. |
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Barzey
Senior Member
United Kingdom
786 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 10:36:13
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Sorry Craig, I agree, I thought I was on the other thread for a moment (Senior moment  )
It does seem rather odd that they may not be allowed/permitted to challenge an application though I agree. I thought that was what they were for, to represent the people whom voted for them in their constituency. |
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WickenMan
Average Member
United Kingdom
422 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 10:48:53
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Good to see that Scouter is going to the Biffa presentation to the Town Council as this is happening simultaneously with the meeting in the Navigator.
It'll be important to ensure that the Navigator group (and the rest of us who can't make it to either meeting) get to know what Biffa are saying and how well the Town Council are supporting the views of residents.
I see that Scouter has had an invitation, can other folk go along uninvited? A larger representation will better reflect the body of opinion in the town who oppose the plan. It's important for the Town Council to understand that the Navigator group also have views of which the Town Council need to be aware but can't attend two meetings happening at the same time.
To reiterate earlier points, though, conversations must not be allowed to impugn the ability of councillors to speak on our behalf.
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Edited by - WickenMan on 19 Oct 2009 10:50:33 |
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Craig
Project Leader
United Kingdom
2320 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 11:13:19
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| If the Biffa team are arriving at the Priory, would the public be allowed to demonstrate outside the Priory as they arrive? |
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spear
Advanced Member
1387 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 11:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Craig
Gosh! Thanks Dusty - that has cleared that up, and I'm aghast. Both at finding out that councillors don't and can't represent the electorate, and at my complete lack of knowledge of what I thought was a democratic process.
Why is it that the public are encouraged to contact their councillor about planning issues if they can't do anything about it or indeed, discussing the very issue could invalidate their ability to vote on any given application?
The link is to a protocol adopted by Ashford, is there any evidence it has been adopted by WTC?
In any case the protocol is against forming a firm opinion in advance of the meeting where the evidence is presented - sensible I would think because to do otherwise would give rise to an appeal.
As I have said the only member in Ware on the planning ctee (at EHDC who won't be dealing anyway) is Clr Alexander.
There are people who do not see a problem here, I'm afraid you will have to live with the idea there are people who do not hold the same views as you and they are quite entitled to do so.
To say
"people whose motivations must be regarded as suspect if they believe the building of this incinerator on Ware's doorstep is a good thing for Ware. These are the either self centred or misguided views that need to be overcome"
is nonsense and will not help - if people have formed a view based on incorrect evidence then produce the facts - abusing people will get you nowhere. |
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Dusty
Senior Member
United Kingdom
692 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 12:55:54
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quote:
Originally posted by IGS
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Since when have we had democracy? We vote for the Prime Minister with the best grin once every five years and they then proceed to do whatever they want despite the promises in their manifesto or the expressed wishes of the populace.
We can only hope that the councillors comments are a ploy, perhaps they will say that they were in favour of the incinerator but went to the meeting with an open mind and were so convinced by the arguments that they ended up voting against. However, I doubt it.
These are the comments I expect to hear from tabloid illiterates. We do not elect the Prime Minister!!! We elect an MP. (If this upsets any reader Of silly newspapers like the Sun. Mirror, Express and the MAIL; THEN TOUGH!!!!)
Oh, dear, we really need an irony emoticon for those who don't understand irony. By the way, I read the Indie, Grauniad and Torygraph (and, for balance, the Sun, Mail and Express if I am bored and find one in the pub).
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ian.ball
WoLFer & Moderator
United Kingdom
2804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 14:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Craig
It appears that if we lobby our councillors, [...] they may not be allowed to challenge an application.
Here is a link to Hertfordshire's code pf practice for planing decisions, more relevant I think than Ashford's! http://www.hertsdirect.org/infobase/docs/pdfstore/planningcodeofpractice.pdf
There is nowhere in that link where it says that lobbying is not allowed, only that the council member may not organize lobbying.
It does however state that councillors should not take part in the planning process if they have already given an opinion. So, if the decision is passed and the councillors quoted as being in favour here have taken part (as I beleive Councillor Alexander has) then the ruling can be challenged legally because he expressed a prior opinion.
Anybody, including councillors and planning staff can be lobbied by Biffa. Quite simply, these days if lobbying was banned, politicians would never pass any laws.
In conclusion we are fully justified in lobbying our councillors, town, district and county and we can also lobby our MP. They should take our views into account as part of the process and they should be seen to take all views into account.
Just because local people don't want something doesn't mean their view is invalid. Make your views known now, don't wait for a planning application. Let your local politicians know, write to the papers, write to the environment minister and use solid arguments. |
Edited by - ian.ball on 19 Oct 2009 14:27:31 |
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Scouter
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 14:50:23
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| Shame the meeting isn't in the Tap Bar as I could shoot round once the meeting finished with the fresh info to hand. I know Ian so perhaps you could consider making your way there and I could fill you in? I'll look in the Tap Bar just in case. |
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mb1
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
2176 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 15:46:35
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| I only picked the Navigator at random. Perhaps we could just stay there long enough to be certain everyone had arrived and then decamp to the Tap Bar. |
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FurtiveBertie
WoLFer
United Kingdom
702 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2009 : 16:00:58
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I'm not planning to come (can't make it tonight), but I would have though moving was a bad move.
Scouter, it'll only take you 2 minutes to sprint along the lenght of the High Street 
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