Topic ID 1136
Well, I have just come away from the BAA – Stansted exhibition held at The Priory in Ware. I had to go there firstly to serve a copy of a letter on them due to their inability or unwillingness to even acknowledge receipt of them since their postings to them on 27/7/05 and 19/8/05. I also questioned what the purpose of the exhibition was if they do not respond properly to letters and mails sent to them anyway. However while I was in there I had a look around and overheard one of the BAA representatives telling one couple that there was more noise around Stansted airport from the M11 and the main roads than what comes from the airport itself. After first not believing such utter twaddle and wondering exactly what planet this BAA Rep was from, I decided to keep quiet and wandered further around the exhibition. But to my total disbelief I overheard yet another BAA representative telling an old lady that she had the answer to aircraft noise in Ware. Curious, I listened in and she went on to tell the old lady that she herself had moved alongside a busy main road where the noise from the main road drowned out the noise of the aircraft!!!! I just couldn’t stay out of that one bearing in mind what I had heard the other BAA Rep say and asked her to repeat what she had just stated which she did!!! IS THAT REALLY THE ANSWER OF THE BAA TO EVERYONE WHOM IS SUFFERING FROM THEIR NOISE POLLUTION-????????MOVE TO SOMEWHERE NOISER SO THAT YOU WON’T HEAR OUR AIRCRAFT??????? Trying to be as reasonable as I could I pointed out to this BAA Rep that some of us, including the old lady and the likes of myself who are now on Pensions and are therefore unable to afford the luxury of moving away to another area, be it quieter for peace, or noisier to mask out the aircraft noise. Furthermore that all of us are entitled to still entitled to expect a nights sleep without the roar of their damned aircraft. I just had to leave this folly of an exhibition – it seemed somehow right that I should, but I did put my details in their little ‘comments’ book if they ever care to read any of them!!!
Reply ID 10632
I managed to find the time to pop-in this afternoon and was pleasantly surprised with the frankness of one of the BAA team. Yes, the number of aircraft will increase dramatically over Ware. Yes, the air pollution will get worse over Ware. Yes, the flights will continue later into the night and begin earlier in the morning. I really didn't have any cause to argue with him and his advice to register my opposition about the proposed expansion of Stansted was welcomed. I think the main thing that will allow the expansion to go ahead is the apathetic public who just won't bother to say anything until it's too late. Once it's done - that'll be it. So, please, to all those who wish to protect the health of their children and save future generations from ill health and sleepless nights, oh, and save the ice caps from melting, please register your opposition while the chance is here. The following link is a PDF of the document visitors were asked to complete if you went to the Exhibition today. I urge you to print it and send it off. [url="http://future.stanstedairport.com/main/assets/pdf/7433534_1_UKMATTERS_Questionnaire.PDF"]Click here to download the Survey form BAA[/url] that will allow you the chance to comment on the proposed increase of use at Stansted. The public consultation on the additional runway doesn't start until the end of November when the whole thing starts again. More meetings, more surveys, more exhibitions. I think they hope the public will get fed-up in the end and let them get on with it.
Reply ID 10633
Do any of us really believe that BAA will take any notice, irrespective of how many people register a complaint. The decision has already been made...all this 'register your protest' business is simply paying lip service to supposed correct and fair procedures. Just about every London business and resident told Ken not to extend the congestion charge area. His response? I'm doing it anyway...they'll soon get used to it!
Reply ID 10634
i have noticed the increase of aircraft flying over walkern aswell they seem to be getting lower and lower and louder and louder,looks like its going on everywhere,maybe michael jackson has the right idea wearing those masks,maybe i should start designing them quick lol[;)]
Reply ID 10635
Ah - yes, "It'll do no good because it's all agreed already." The mantra of the apathetic, the lazy and I can't be bothered camps. Is it worth the risk though, on the off chance that they haven't already made the decision.
Reply ID 10636
I did not have the chance to go to the exhibition held in Ware, therefore cannot comment on the BAA presentation. It is known that the South East as a whole needs to increase its capacity as far as airports are concerned due to the growing number of travellers and inhabitants in the region. I completely agree with the fact that expanding Stansted airport will bring more noise throughout the day (from early morning to late at night) and more pollution. On the other hand, the expansion of the airport will create more opportunities in the area, not only in the construction but also in business and tourism. This may provide a future for younger generations without the need of leaving the area to look for a job. The key issue is to find the right balance combining expansion and pollution/noise level.
Reply ID 10637
quote:It's a subjective matter. As it happens, they're not getting either lower or louder.
Originally posted by angel6669992002
they seem to be getting lower and lower and louder and louder
Reply ID 10638
a 747 flying at 3000 foot looks lower than a airbus flying at the same height and is much much louder.the noise will never stop just one continuous roar
Reply ID 10639
Ditto the FedEx MD-11s
Reply ID 10640
quote:I was told by a representative at the exhibition yesterday that they pass over Ware at 2,000 feet... now that is low enough thank you. She also explained that flights to Stansted would increase from 25,000 to 35,000 a year, that’s an increase of around 30%. Of those that are landing 35% will pass directly over out town. As has previously been stated BAA were quite open about the facts, but none of it was good news for me. More noise, more pollution and more people on the roads. I feel that the plans that the government have for Hertfordshire do nothing for the quality of life of the population.
Originally posted by stevequote:It's a subjective matter. As it happens, they're not getting either lower or louder.
Originally posted by angel6669992002
they seem to be getting lower and lower and louder and louder
Reply ID 10642
quote:Is it known? I am sceptical about that and think it's the air tour operators that really want their costs kept down by having everything in the South East so they don't have to spend so much money duplicating and moving things from one area to another. I would guess a lot of the passengers come from other parts of the country to take advantage of cheap flights. As to more opportunities, this area has pretty well full employment and is running at near capacity for all local services (roads, education, healthcare, water) so while I'm far from against more opportunities for all I really don't think that argument can be justified.
Originally posted by Warebyday
It is known that the South East as a whole needs to increase its capacity as far as airports are concerned due to the growing number of travellers and inhabitants in the region. On the other hand, the expansion of the airport will create more opportunities in the area, not only in the construction but also in business and tourism. This may provide a future for younger generations without the need of leaving the area to look for a job. The key issue is to find the right balance combining expansion and pollution/noise level.
Reply ID 10643
quote:It wasn't the young girl that told you this was it? My information from staff at NATS is that controlled airspace over Hertford and Ware is no lower than 3000ft. Commercial air traffic is not allowed below his height.
Originally posted by Cod
I was told by a representative at the exhibition yesterday that they pass over Ware at 2,000 feet.
Reply ID 10644
quote:It was indeed and she definitely said 2,000 feet. I expect that your information is correct steve (you seem to know your onions) but whatever the technical details, the effects of this expansion seem to be obvious. The same young lady also said that it could be argued that constant air noise is better than intermittent noise as you will notice it less. Now that’s not a BAA argument but it was a curious thing for her to say.
Originally posted by stevequote:It wasn't the young girl that told you this was it?
Originally posted by Cod
I was told by a representative at the exhibition yesterday that they pass over Ware at 2,000 feet.
Reply ID 10645
Hi Cod - Quote:-The same young lady also said that it could be argued that constant air noise is better than intermittent noise as you will notice it less. Now that’s not a BAA argument but it was a curious thing for her to say It seems that the you spoke to the same young lady whom also moved home to be alongside a busy, noisy main road so that it drowns out the aircraft noise for her.
Reply ID 10647
Craig, I don't think its apathy or laziness. I'm afraid its called realism...I've been down the fantasy route too often over the years, and have come to a reluctant acceptance of the fact that political decisions are made irrespective of the wishes or opinions of the majority of the people.
Reply ID 10648
Yes, let's all give up and go home like the defeatist UKMusicman says. And let's suck the life blood out of anyone who dares to have any spirit in them and stand up for what they beleive in.
Reply ID 10649
Can any of you wise sages explain how democracy works.... If the town, district, county councils + MP who have all been elected by us, all oppose something (i.e. airport expansion/20,000 extra homes) how can theirs/our wishes then be ignored? - because then, why should we bother to vote? Am I missing something or am I stupid?
Reply ID 10650
Ultimately,the decision is made by the government,which is elected by the whole country.Our local representatives are powerless in the big decisions.Why bother to vote??...Good question.I`m sure the Tories would do the same on this issue(even if the local MP opposed it.NIMBY) ...Not sure about the Lib Dems. though.
Reply ID 10657
You misread me Steve. My point is simply this....stand up and be counted by all means, make sure your opinion is heard, sign a petition and write to whoever, if it makes you feel you're actually achieving something. But don't wear the rose coloured specs and actually think that any decision maker will actually take any notice. I've signed more petitions and written to more authorities than I could possibly remember, and will no doubt continue to do so. But I am a sufficient realist to know deep down that decision makers will take no notice, even when the wishes of the majority conflict with those of the so called decision makers.
Reply ID 10722
Well, Barzey, going back to your post that started this thread, are your pants on fire? Because you are a liar, according to BAA. The Mercury ran a story about this thread of the Ware Online forum (page 5 of today’s edition) and a BAA spokesman told the Mercury that their representatives could not possibly have said what you reported. ‘Ludicrous and totally incorrect,’ were the words he used. I think we all know who the ‘ludicrous and totally incorrect’ liars really are.
Reply ID 10723
Well!! Thanks for the information on that as I had not seen it. I will see what its all about. One thing is for sure - I heard it - I saw it with my own eyes and ears.
Reply ID 10724
Hmmmm! cannot seem to find how to edit the posting anymore. I have now got my copy of the 'Herts Merc' and on reading it through it barely requires any further response at all really. Except that I am quite sure that everyone on here can work out exactly who is telling the truth from their own experiances. However it would be lovely if the people I heard them talking to could see this and come forward. Namely the gent with a very short beard and glasses (i think) with the lady that was with him, as well as the old lady whom appeared to be on her own.
Reply ID 10725
I think we all realize this expansion is something we cannot stop, it makes me furious but I am now becoming more militant about complaining about the smaller everyday matters that we can do something about. Roads and traffic are issues that we can still address but we must be far more forceful in future because if we sit back and do nothing then these larger injustices develop over time and we find ourselves impotent in their wake. STAND UP AND BE COUNTED!
Reply ID 10726
here's the link... http://www.hertsessexnews.co.uk/news/mercury/hertfordshire_mercury/2005/10/14/how%20to%20avoid%20aircraft%20noise%20live%20by%20a%20road.lpf
Reply ID 10728
The noise from jet aircraft at night has increased dramatically over Ware in the past 10 years or so. It is most noticable when the weather is warmer and the windows have to left open over night. The planes do seem to be lower and noisier over Ware making it very difficult to get to sleep when they pass over the house every few minutes, later and later into the night. It is very difficult to get to sleep when this occurs. Stansted aircraft are apparently not permitted to fly over Bishops Stortford, so why shouldn't Ware residents be given the same consideration? When we moved to our house in Ware in 1992, aircraft noise was not a problem. In recent years, we have had an increasing number of nights struggling to get to sleep imbetween the excessive noise of aircraft flying directly over our house. Because of this, we are not in favour of increasing the number of flights to or from Stansted and are definitely against the building of a 2nd runway.
Reply ID 10741
Redrich382 is right about aircraft noise in Ware. However, he/she states that they only moved to the town in 1992. There are many people living in Ware who have lived in the town for far longer - in fact before Stansted was even a civil aviation airport. It was used for a long time by Uncle Sam's bunch of fire first and ask questions later incompetents and the noise level was never a problem. Since the Government opted to make Stansted London 3, the noise has increased in huge waves. Our Member of Parliament has a good record in speaking out against the airport but Tony and his cronies have their own agenda - so any opposition can go to hell. I have, for a long time, advocated that Manston in Kent should be used as another London airport rather than expand the three that already cause so much misery. Reasons? Well Thanet is an area of high unemployment and relatively low property prices (as opposed to areas of high emplyment and house prices where the existing airports are situated)so the lousy pay that most airport work offers would go further. The aircraft could take off over the sea and thus not cause land based noise pollution. The majority of the infrastructure is in place in the form of the M2 M20 and Channel Tunnel rail link and would not cost a great deal to expand to meet the airport needs. Above all, Manston Airport is currently up for sale as the company owning it has gone into liquidation. Perhaps the goons at BAA have failed to notice this, but they could get an airport with a 2.5 kilometre runway for next to nothing and the Government could provide transport links at minimal cost. Net result is that BAA's profits would barely be dented in the short term but would show healthy returns in the medium to long term and the poor taxpayer would get away with a far from costly upgrade of transport systems. Perhaps this is too much for a company that thinks it calls the shots and blots out legitimate radio broadcasts almost at will and a Government that can't see that Kent has much to offer becuase it doesn't cost a fortune (or is it because they might upset the French by allowing aircarft to overfly British waters that French fisherman rape on a daily basis)?
Reply ID 10743
Excellent post ‘GLP’- EXCELLENT!! I think most people must be wondering exactly the same regarding Manston Airport. Particularly since the entire infrastructure is now there regarding the Channel Tunnel. Complete with all the ports that have Hovercraft and cross channel ferries and high speed rail links. Obviously the Governments and the BAA will not consider adapting that idea as it obviously is not in their monetary interest for some reason. Most other countries around the world that have a coastal area, strategically place their airports at the coast where planes can take off and land over the sea which would obviously greatly limit the amount of people affected by noise pollution.
Reply ID 11228
Just saw the following on the BBC news website today. Yet more evidence to suggest that noise in general is a Bad Thing. Intersting in that a loud radio is 65-75 and a busy street is 78-85 decibels, so my estimation would be that aircraft over Ware are between the two and the maximum quoted is between 65 and 75, so they are too loud. See article at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/4460694.stm If this becomes law, BAA and the aircraft industry will be forced to make changes. However, being the cynic that I am, I don't doubt that the government will fudge the issue [:(]
Reply ID 11229
Like musicman I think it is unrealistic to expect our objections to make a blind bit of difference to whether or not the expansion of Stansted goes ahead. It seems 100% inevitable and is a result of our past behaviousr and apathy which is now catching up with us. The only way to progress would seem to me to be to concentrate on the issues that we can affect, even though we seem to be becoming more and more impotent as a nation. If you have never been involved in local policy making then do so. Complain to the council about the state of the roads, choose which shops you buy from and dont always take the path of least resistence. Sorry if this sounds like preaching but how else can ordinary people make a difference to their environment. Alternatively you could go and live in a remote part of the country and bury your head in the sand.
Reply ID 11239
I too would urge people to complain - you can do this online by sending a message to Stansted at stanstednoiseline@baa.com and copying in the responsible goverment departments using airports@dft.gsi.gov.uk. I do this on a regular basis and they do keep records - I always get the line "from previous correspondence". As to apathy, don't forget that there is now only 1 extra runway as opposed to 3 and a lot of that is due to pressures brought by the Stop Stansted Expansion campaign (more details at http://www.stopstanstedexpansion.com/). Practically you're right, we can't stop the increase but I'm trying to persuade them to ask air traffic control to take more control over where they fly and increase the height at which they fly over Ware. Seems to me an obvious win-win, but we'll wait and see if they think so too! As to using local shops, again I agree and have to say that we actually have some cracking businesses in Ware and they are not as expensive as many imagine - Byrons for example have a great line in local smoked ham that is ony 1p/100g more than Tesco!
Reply ID 11240
I counted four low flying aircraft in the space of 10 minutes at around 11pm
Reply ID 11283
Back in Sept I complained about aircraft flying over Ware at 12:40 in the night. To their credit they wrote back to me agreeing that there were flights over my postcode at that time. Phew, I wasn't dreaming then. The letter quoted. "...there are no fixed routes to final approach for inbound aircraft and other than the application of the international noise standard set for the civil air transport aircraft, there are no specific noise limits set for inbound aircraft." ..so the next time you are lying awake at 12:40 listening to the planes please check which way the plane is going before you complain. The ones taking off aren't allowed wake us, but the ones landing, well they can pretty much do what they like. As for the exhibitions and consultations, they are so going through the motions. One question for BAA. "Is there anything, anything at all the community could possibly do to stop the expansion?"
Reply ID 11321
quote:Yep, I got the exact same letter - they can't even be bothered to re-word it [:(]. As to doing something about it, my personal opinion is that there is no way the expansion will be stopped, but there are a couple of things that may be achieved: 1) delay the building of it by putting in place as many legal obstacles as possible. This is one of the many approaches the Stop Stansted Expansion campaign are taking and may also cancel the expansion if they manage to convince BAA and the Government that it will be too expensive. 2) Reduce the impact by choosing an action that can be carried out with little or no cost to the Government and BAA but wiull have a significant effect on the population affected. I personally think 1) will ultimately fail as there is a perceived (maybe even real) need for more flights and that can only be fulfilled by expanding here or elsewhere. I think for this Government here is the most attractive option as there are no votes to lose. We may have a chance with 2) however and to my mind getting the approach made higher and having more control may well be achievable if we apply enough pressure and complain enough.
Originally posted by GOR
Back in Sept I complained about aircraft flying over Ware at 12:40 in the night. To their credit they wrote back to me agreeing that there were flights over my postcode at that time. Phew, I wasn't dreaming then. The letter quoted. "...there are no fixed routes to final approach for inbound aircraft and other than the application of the international noise standard set for the civil air transport aircraft, there are no specific noise limits set for inbound aircraft." As for the exhibitions and consultations, they are so going through the motions. One question for BAA. "Is there anything, anything at all the community could possibly do to stop the expansion?"